Transcript for Photojournalists Covering Conflict Zones With Nariman El-Mofty, Enric Martí & Ivor Prickett
Episode details can be found here.
Transcript:
This is the Pulitzer on the Road podcast and I'm your guide, Nicole Carroll. I’m a co-chair of the Pulitzer Prize board and a faculty member at the Walter Cronkite School of Journalism and Mass Communication at Arizona State University.
Each spring, 23 Pulitzer Prizes are awarded for distinguished journalism, books, drama and music. On this podcast, we talk with many of the winners and hear the stories behind their prize-winning work.
I’m joined right now by Marjorie Miller. Marjorie is the administrator of the Pulitzer Prizes and she’s here with me today to talk about this episode, which starts at a Pulitzer on the Road event that took place at the 2025 International Press Institute World Congress in Vienna, Austria.
Thanks for being here.
Marjorie Miller: Hi Nicole.
Nicole Carroll: So, for those who aren’t familiar with the International Press Institute (or IPI), can you describe what they do?
Marjorie: So, the International Press Institute is a global network of editors, media executives and leading journalists from nearly 100 countries who promote independent journalism that’s free from government interference and free of retaliation. And last year the organization celebrated its 75th anniversary with a conference in Vienna on the global fight to protect media freedom and free expression.
Nicole: Right.
Marjorie: So, they were aware of our Pulitzer on the Road events and podcast and they invited us to participate with a panel on increasing obstacles for photojournalists.
Nicole: The Pulitzer Prizes are awarded every year which means there are so many amazing journalists to pick from when organizing an event like this.
Marjorie: Yes.
Nicole: So, how did you decide to invite Enric Martí and Nariman El-Mofty?
Marjorie: Well, I had worked with both Enric and Nariman at The Associated Press.
Nicole: Mhmm.
Marjorie: Enric and I first worked together in Mexico City, where we were running Latin America coverage for about five years. Then we moved to New York to run global enterprise coverage and that’s when we worked with Nariman.
Nicole: Mmm.
Marjorie: She was part of two AP teams that won Pulitzer Prizes for work in Yemen and later in Ukraine. And Enric is an editor of photo packages – like these. A very talented editor, I might add. And he manages many of the packages that AP enters for Pulitzer Prizes.
Nicole: Both these journalists have really rich, amazing journalism careers. Were there any moments in particular that stood out to you?
Marjorie: There are so many issues, especially when it comes to press freedom and obstacles to access and what photojournalists have to do to maintain access and what kind of workarounds they have to come up with when they’re denied access.
Nicole: Yeah.
Marjorie: In the last couple of years, one of the most difficult issues has been coverage of the war in Gaza and the Israeli government has blocked international media from entering Gaza, so that means that international media must use local journalists.
Nicole: Right.
Marjorie: And that’s not only difficult for them working remotely with local journalists but it’s very dangerous, of course, for the journalists in Gaza. And so I think that’s one of the more interesting topics that we discussed.
Nicole: Mmm.
Marjorie: There was also this interesting moment when the conflict in Sudan came up and we discussed how hard it has been for journalists to get access there.
Nicole: I bet.
Marjorie: Enric and Nariman mentioned another photojournalist named Ivor Prickett who has done a lot of work in Sudan with The New York Times. And the New York Times team won the 2025 Pulitzer Prize for International Reporting for that coverage. And I actually ended up speaking to Ivor after this panel, so we’ll hear some of that conversation later.
Nicole: I’m so really glad we’re sharing these conversations um today with our listeners. We live in such a visual time and, despite all the struggles they have with access and safety, they deliver.
Marjorie: Mhmm.
Nicole: They deliver these searing images that shape our perceptions of these wars. It’s incredibly important.
So we’ll hear your interview with Ivor Prickett later in this episode but, first, here’s your conversation with Enric Marti and Nariman El-Mofty from the 2025 International Press Institute World Congress.
Marjorie Miller: Let's start with Enric because what we're looking at is efforts to throw up barriers to photography. I always felt privileged to be a print reporter because I could reconstruct scenes and events and places through interviews — not so for the photographers. So it's never been easy or safe to be a photojournalist in areas of conflict and war, but it has gotten increasingly difficult as governments and militaries and irregular forces have thrown up more obstacles. Enric, can you talk about some of the differences between the time of, say, Central America, the Balkans, and then Iraq, Afghanistan, Ukraine and Gaza?
Enric Martí: Hi everybody. Um, obviously differences are, are happen because over time many things came up that may change the landscape of not only how we cover things, but how the public perceives what we do. You know, I have the feeling that, back in the day, journalism and photography were perceived in a more positive way. Slowly, our reputation among the public — it's been sliding down a little bit and right now we’re increasingly seen as being a part of the — of the problem. And the, the, the targeting of journalists, which has been always an issue, now became sort of like more obvious and more direct. Obviously you see, social media and, any movie you watch nowadays portrays the journalists and photographers especially as vultures waiting for something bad to happen or to bother somebody. We're always portrayed in a very negative way, and that translates to governments and even normal people, you know, perceiving us as not very good people to have around. So, yeah, that's the main difference. Social media and all that stuff.
Marjorie: But—
Enric: Now everybody has a camera.
Marjorie: But even before social media, I mean, there are actual physical barriers. We always, you know, confronted militaries—
Enric: Yeah.
Marjorie: Who made us get permission to enter a zone or you know, crossfire.
Enric: There was a moment that was the Iraq War, the second war when, you know, in order to access you had to be embedded. There were lots of journalists that actually went on their own into—
Marjorie: Right.
Enric: —Into Baghdad. But the embedded thing became the thing. And when you're embedded with somebody, you're perceived of being on one side, which is the one who is taking you there, and you're supposed to cover only what they let you cover and it's increasingly more difficult [than] in the time of Vietnam, for example. It looks like that was a free for all and I think that then especially the Americans, saw how giving that free, you see access was working against them because [the] Vietnam War, obviously the coverage that was there was one of the reasons that the whole thing went sideways.
Marjorie: Let's go back for a minute to social media, which is a double-edged sword in some ways, right, Nariman? 'Cause sometimes it tells you. It helps you know where you can go or what you can do, but you've talked, Nariman, about how the government turns public opinion against you through social media.
Nariman El-Mofty: Yeah, I mean, definitely. Like you said, it's a double-edged sword. Social media and like people are driving this thing, so we also as journalists have to kind of take it seriously in this age, I think. For example, like for going to Gaza in terms of opinion and shifting opinion, a lot of people did get their information from UGC user-generated content because there aren't any foreign journalists allowed. And It's incredibly important to take, I mean, social media seriously with what we do. I mean, I was covering the earthquake in Morocco and there was a picture of a woman, you know, breastfeeding her child that I've taken. And it was a very human story actually. It ended really well 'cause the child lived and so on. What happened to me on social media was insane. And there was right after there was a floods in Libya and I was supposed to go with The New York Times, and when the government of Libya saw what happened on social media, they actually rejected me. So governments are taking opinion online, it's in these influencers are extremely powerful too you know, with what we do.
Marjorie: Well, in Egypt, to where you live—
Nariman: Yeah.
Marjorie: In particular, the government has been very powerful in turning masses or groups of people against the journalists, right?
Nariman: Yeah, definitely. The government completely controls and has a grip of all journalists, and that's why there aren't really foreign journalists in the country. Like the nineties, for example. Lots of people have left and it's not even easy to work on the borders with Rafah. So many journalists want to go there and, and work, you know, and you, you don't have access to any of that.
Marjorie: Right. So all of this is about governments wanting to control the narrative in their countries, or—
Nariman: Mm-hmm, yeah.
Marjorie: That's not new. But it seems like they're just getting more sophisticated.
Enric: Yeah, everything is bigger. There [are] more journalists, there's more social media. The amount of images that people see makes our job really complicated. And people tend to, to not believe anything for a good reason because, you know, there's a lot of fake pictures and everything.
Marjorie: Misinformation.
Enric: So that's, that's, now there is an initiative to, to actually include some software in the camera. Sony and Adobe is working on on including software in every picture that can, that at some point can tell you what has been done to that picture and if it's generated by artificial intelligence and so on. But at some point it's gonna be almost impossible to figure it out what is real and what is not. You know, it makes really complicated, you know, for me, I sometimes sound like a dinosaur, but I wish we would be back going to film, which is, you know, at least you have something solid. That for me is the most sad thing because you see photographers, they'll learn photography only with digital cameras. And you send [a] photographer to an assignment and they come back with 5,000 images digital, and then I make it divided by 24, which is what fits in a row of film. And they shoot in one week, 300 rows of film. And I was in Bosnia during the war for four years and I don't think I shot 300 rows of film in the whole war. Okay.
Marjorie: But it's not improving the quality, only the quantity?
Enric: I don't think it's improving the quality, actually.
Marjorie: Uh huh. So, going back to access a bit, Nariman, you've said that for example, in Yemen, because you were an Arab journalist, you had better access than Western journalists. Is that generally the case or it just depends story to story? And also — and I always used to hate this question because I've never been a male journalist — but do you think it's easier or harder to get access as a female journalist?
Nariman: Yeah, I mean, it depends where you work. In the Arab world, I think women definitely have some access. Even with children,a lot of people in the Arab world will be a bit more comfortable, you know, if a woman is going to talk to her about her children and so on or than than a male that doesn't understand the language and so on. But with Yemen, our team, we were, we were two Egyptians and a Yemeni. And so that, in terms of access, it really did make a difference. Two of us as women, people were much more comfortable with us. In Ukraine, for example, I don't feel like it made a difference honestly. Un Ukraine it was more about who I worked for rather than who I am as a person.
Enric: Mmm.
Marjorie: Mm-hmm. So let's get to the elephant in the room, which is Gaza, where the Western media has completely been blocked from entering except occasionally on an embed. And so, although the Western media or the international media, not always Western, but has long worked with stringers on the ground, everywhere because of language, because of their knowledge of the landscape, because of their networks. Because when you drop into a place you've never worked before, you don't actually know what you're doing, no matter how good you are. But in this case, because international journalists have not been permitted to go in on their own, the international media is relying almost entirely on Gazan journalists. And at last count, 239 media workers had died in Gaza since the October 7th Hamas attack on Israel. And among the latest was a woman who had long worked for AP, Mariam Dagga, who was killed at the hospital. So Enric, many of the longtime fixers and photographers who you had worked with in Gaza worked for as long as they could and eventually had to get out, right?
Enric: Yeah.
Marjorie: You can only do this for so long we’re on two years. How do you find the photographers and the journalists and how hard is it compared to the past?
Enric: Well, that is a bit of a tricky question because there is plenty of journalists and photographers in Gaza right now. There is less than before, many have been killed, but there is a very big group of people that wants to document this. Some of them started not being journalists or photographers, maybe, but that the circumstances has taken them to be ready to document what's happening to their country. And this is even from before October 7, okay? So the problem that I see here is that — and I have to say I'm, you see, I'm proud of working for an agency that is independent and I believe we are independent — the Israeli government, they have a big machine of monitoring everything we do. This is not from now, it's been for years. Every caption, whatever. They claimed on October 7th that some of the pictures that we actually had were taken by photographers that were Hamas—
Marjorie: And not just you, Reuters.
Enric: No, no, Reuters and everybody else.
Marjorie: Yeah.
Enric: We've been having to vet everybody that we want to work with us. If we wanna work with somebody, we need to check their social media, for instance. It's sort [of] that we are demanding from a journalist in Gaza to be completely objective. You see, whatever that means, it's your country, your people who's being bombarded.
Marjorie: Some of the root of that — in addition to the fact that every government wants to control the narrative — doesn't it go back to the fact that long before October 7th, a lot of people who wanted to work as journalists in Gaza had to register with Hamas because Hamas was the government? So—
Enric: Well, yeah. I mean—
Marjorie: How do you vet someone against that background?
Enric: You can't.
Marjorie: So, are there a lot of people you would like to work with who you can't work with because of the vetting?
Enric: Yes. Yes.
Marjorie: Yeah. Yeah. Media are looking for all sorts of ways to get around these restrictions, whether it's the vetting, whether it's the barricade that international media can't get around. So, Nariman, you just won an Overseas Press Club Award for a project that you did on the children of Gaza. You weren't allowed to go into Gaza?
Nariman: No, not even.
Marjorie: So, how did you do this?
Nariman: Yeah.
Marjorie: How did you get around that?
Nariman: So, it was with the Times and the senior photo editor called me and she had heard there's a group being evacuated to Italy. So obviously I couldn't even get to El-Arish to work on the borders. So I met them in Cairo. It was a group of women and children, and I decided to focus the story on three severely injured children. And I just did their journey from Egypt to Bologna and Monza, where they were receiving treatment. And one of them, she's a 5-year-old girl whose leg was amputated in Gaza and then they had to re-amputate it in Italy because the end of her leg basically had a lot of fungus. Because they didn't have any medical supplies to do it properly. So it was basically, one of the Italian doctors said it was basically like a butcher chopped it off because there's no sterile equipment, there's nothing. This is one way to get around the story to work from outside. You don't always have to be inside the hot zones to work on human stories. I believe there are always some ways to work around it. And sometimes it's actually freer being on the outside, because for example, it's only women and children. There were no men, so it was maybe easier for them to speak.
Marjorie: Mm-hmm.
Nariman: You know, more with comfort than you know, the husband saying, not say this or that. So there are positives of working outside like the hot zones.
Marjorie: Right. They don't feel under threat once they're out.
Nariman: Yeah. No one knows them there.
Marjorie: Yeah.
Enric: But the work that the photographers and the journalists are doing inside Gaza, it's amazing. And it’s what—
Nariman: Of course, no doubt. But—
Marjorie: Yeah, I mean, you want to be on the ground—
Nariman: Of course.
Marjorie: But when you're prohibited from being on the ground, that's one way. Another way is through the use of technology. So—
Nariman: Yeah.
Marjorie: Drones and satellite photography. How useful has that been in these wars?
Enric: I am not — as a photojournalist, I'm not a fan of drone pictures. I think they have no personality somehow. But it is useful. But flying drones in Gaza has been almost impossible. And now the problem with the drones, especially in war zones, is that the drones are not only used to get images right now, you see, they have other [uses] of the drones. So flying a drone is very complicated. I mean, they're useful, you see, to document what's happening. But me and my side of photojournalist that, that you see photographers are, they all think we are artists also. You see, so at least for me, real photography has very little to do with drones and satellite images.
Marjorie: But I think satellite images are particularly useful.
Enric: Yeah.
Marjorie: When you're talking about the scale of damage in Gaza, when you're talking, when you're trying to do investigative journalism about what kind of bomb or weapon was used.
Enric: You see, but here here's the problem with satellite images, okay? And with almost everything, who owns the satellites? You know, now I'm improvising here, but I read that Mr. Elon Musk owns most of the satellites. He owns Starlink. I mean, the Ukrainians depend on somebody like Elon Musk. They're all private, you see? And they must have an interest. They're going to, they will give us pictures of Gaza right now, but for whatever interest they have, but one day they will not give it to us. And we depend on them. We depend on the cloud [that] is owned by Amazon. And you know, a week ago they all went down and the AP could not move a picture in the whole day. And this is also a private company, you see. So it's all these satellite things. And so for me, the best way to document something is somebody with a film camera getting somewhere and doing a real document.
Nariman: Yeah. I mean, they’re — Marjorie — they’re military tools at the end of the day that we're using and it's, you know, satellite and drone. It's great for scale and great for numbers, for investigations, but does it humanize anyone?
Enric: Yeah.
Nariman: And being on the ground in front of people is like, yeah, you know, pull up your sleeves and be in front of people. Talk to people. This is what we do. And they have a right to throw something at our cameras. And I like that. It's [the] agency—
Marjorie: Mhmm.
Nariman: It's their agency to be like, stop it, right? Don't do that. But with a drone, you can't—
Enric: See the pictures? The pictures that I've been editing Gaza now for a year. Okay, I wake up every morning getting pictures from Gaza, from our photographers, and I've been seeing pictures of dead children every day. I've seen that live also, but being an editor and seeing that and seeing how hopeless we were, because things were not changing. We kept sending those pictures and nothing changes. And at some point, you see, you find that one photo that has that quality of becoming iconic and we move things. Okay. And it's slow, but things have changed and the public opinion turned around a little bit. So even though with all the limitations, what we do sometimes helps change stuff.
Nariman: Yeah.
Enric: And these photographers in Gaza—
Nariman: On the ground, inside the hospitals—
Enric: Are the ones that are doing that, okay? So yeah—
Marjorie: You can't build trust from a drone, right? You can't—
Nariman: No.
Marjorie: Um, another obstacle depending on how you view it or another tool is the security that media organizations now, put in place around their journalists. Back in Central America days, we didn't do security training. We didn't even carry a first aid kit, I think. And, you know, journalists went from Central America to Iraq and in Central America they used to put big signs on their cars that said "press," "media.”
Nariman: Mm-hmm.
Marjorie: And that meant don't shoot me. Then they got to Iraq and suddenly realized that many groups in Iraq saw them as the enemy. And suddenly they took down all those signs and weren't identifying themselves as publicly as media. And ever since, I think that's been the case. So all of these companies came up that would train journalists what to do in the event of a kidnapping, what to do in various situations and 'Oh, take a first aid kit,' but that's gone quite far since then, and there's a lot of rules and regulations. Can you talk a little bit about the good and the bad of that?
Nariman: You're a boss. Security.
Enric: You see, I've been around for quite some time and right now I think it is gone a little bit too far, which is understandable. There is more and more journalists being killed. Okay. But it makes [it] really difficult to actually get an assignment approved for many reasons. In Ukraine, Nariman, you know, well, how difficult it was.
Nariman: Yeah.
Enric: To actually get approved to move even 10 kilometers.
Nariman: Yeah.
Enric: From the center of Kharkiv to the first checkpoint.
Nariman: Yeah.
Enric: And it needs to be approved by the coordinator that is on the ground. If the coordinator is somebody that is a bit insecure—
Nariman: Forget it.
Enric: We always ask. And you know, depending on how confident they are, they just prefer to get somebody else to approve that you move from point A to part B, point B, then by the time you get permission to go from point A to point B, the—
Nariman: It's done.
Enric: The story is gone. So that's, you know—
Nariman: You end up getting something that can be shallow.
Enric: Yeah.
Nariman: Unfortunately.
Enric: Yeah.
Nariman: I mean, at some point there's a limit to this at some point. Why are you doing this? Why are you a journalist? Why? Like it, there's a risk.
Enric: There's always, at the end of the day, it always depends on the people that [are] on the ground to take decisions that if things go wrong, you may be blamed and even maybe may get fired. But if things go well — like it happened in Mariupol, for example — well, then everybody wants to be in the picture. You see—
Marjorie: Well, what you're doing is bearing witness and you're trying to inform the world what their governments, or what their militaries, or what their tax dollars are doing, and it's gotten much harder for all of these reasons. Are you still able to do that? Are you doing it?
Enric: Yes, we are. Of course. At least we're trying and I think it's way more difficult for all the reasons we've been talking about here. But as I said, there is certain pictures and the stuff that we move out of Gaza that is, that has been making a difference. You see, the fact that we are seeing all that has turned a little bit. You know, public opinion to demand to do something. I mean, it's slow, and there's one thing that is very true that some people says, oh, everybody, all these people that went — the flotilla that went to — and all these activists talking about Gaza, and there [are] people complaining that, well, nobody gives a shit about what's going on in Sudan, which is true. Problem with Sudan is that there is no access at all. You see in other places like Tigray was difficult and there is stuff going on and everybody [says], well, everybody cares about Gaza now, but not about Sudan. Well, yeah, we do our best, but yeah.
Marjorie: And you can't use local journalists there and get it out in the same way?
Enric: It's very difficult to find somebody that would, actually — communications are horrible. It's really — so this is why the — what's the name of the photographer from the New York Times? Pickett?
Nariman: Ivor Prickett.
Marjorie: Ivor.
Enric: Yeah, it was few that actually managed to cover that, you know?
Nariman: Yeah. And I'm sure behind the scenes they worked so hard to get that kind of access.
Marjorie: And he and Declan Walsh spent a great deal of time. And they won a Pulitzer Prize.
Nariman: Yeah.
Marjorie: So—
Enric: Yeah.
Marjorie: One thing I think you're also up against is not the restrictions of governments or militaries, but the fact that everyone has a camera, everyone posts pictures. There's no limits on what they can post in, including the assassination of Charlie Kirk. So, do you feel that the public is growing numb and being inundated with horrible photographs? And how do you get around that or overcome that? Let's start with Nariman, 'cause you are doing it on a much bigger scale, but when you're taking pictures, do you have in mind that you're up against, a more cynical or a more exposed public that you're trying to impress with?
Nariman: No, never. Because I've accepted it a very long time ago. Like, AI is here. It's, I mean, it's like when photography came in where the painters freaked out and said 'you're not artists.' Like, what happened? Art still lives, right? So it's here and I accept it. I'm not going against user-generated content. I'm just focused exactly on what I'm doing. And as you said, bearing witness. I'm not CCTV, I'm not surveillance.
Marjorie: Right.
Nariman: I'm here as a person and I think with, you know, with AI and everything like [that], I think there's strength in that, that we're still human. Maybe AI can learn human experience somehow, but can it ever have human experience? And I think that's where we come in with our faults as well. So I don't think people are numb. I think people are sick to their stomach. I know people who have nothing to do with politics or anything who have had a lot of mental health issues. I mean, therapists are doing really well. I have to say in this day and age, people have shifted opinion on Gaza, have humanized Palestinians a bit more, I think.
Marjorie: And Ukrainians.
Nariman: Yeah. And of course, Ukrainians.
Marjorie: So, Enric, you're the one you mentioned before. You go through the pictures and you're looking for something that's impactful and special and—
Enric: Yeah, that's, yeah.
Marjorie: How do you do that?
Enric: Well, it's a mystery how sometimes. There is that one picture that for whatever reason is maybe very similar to other pictures or whatever, but the has has something that is iconic. There is that look, that composition, that light, whatever it is, you know, that those, those are the pictures that I'm looking for every day when I edit what comes out of Gaza. You see? And there's examples of pictures like this, the one from Reuters that you like so much uh, the, picture of the kid in Türkiye—
Marjorie: On the beach.
Enric: On the beach. You see those are in, and I can see pictures out of Gaza that are—
Marjorie: Mariupol with the pregnant woman.
Enric: Yeah, the pregnant woman in Mariupol. So that, you know, you look for those pictures that, that. they're gonna become the 'Napalm Girl.' It's a picture that changed, you know, the perception of Vietnam, and I'm still looking for that every time that I edit something and that those pictures exist and, and I don't believe artificial intelligence can create that. That’s the magic of, photography, no matter how many images there is or whatever there is that you see. [In] the Second Intifada, there was that image of that kid in Nazarim Crossing—
Nariman: Muhammad al-Durrah.
Enric: With his father. Muhammad al-Durrah. And that was, you remember that?
Marjorie: Yeah.
Enric: That was a video, actually. It was an AP photographer who was there, who took the picture. It was film back then. They went back to the office and the film got ruined because light entered the tank. And the image, it stayed like an icon.
Nariman: It's video.
Enric: Is the still photo taken from the video, you see? So that's the power of still photography.
Marjorie: Yeah, Enric shared with me a photo package that ran recently, with photos by Fatima, what's her last name?
Enric: Fatima Shbair.
Marjorie: And in it, there was this remarkable — it's an interview, you can find it on AP where she was in the hospital and her father was dying of illness, couldn't get treatment, and then all a sudden there had been an attack and all the victims came in and there was a boy on the floor and she was torn between staying with her father and going to take this photograph.
Enric: Yeah.
Marjorie: And she says in this interview that if she didn't take this photograph, if she didn't bear witness, it would be as if his death hadn't happened.
Enric: Yeah.
Marjorie: No one would know. And I think that's the beauty of bearing witness.
Enric: Yeah.
Nicole Carroll: We'll be back with photojournalist Ivor Prickett after this short break.
After Marjorie spoke to Enric and Nariman, we kept thinking about what they said about issues of access more broadly, especially in places like Sudan.
Less coverage of Sudan means there’s less visibility into what’s going on there.
The Sudanese military is fighting a paramilitary group called the Rapid Support Forces (or RSF). More than 150,000 people have died, 12 million people have been displaced and about 26 million people are facing acute hunger or starvation.
So we decided to sit down with photojournalist Ivor Prickett, who was part of the team at The New York Times that won the 2025 Pulitzer Prize in International Reporting, for their investigation into the war in Sudan.
Here’s Marjorie’s conversation with photojournalist Ivor Prickett.
Marjorie Miller: Ivor, thank you so much for joining me today.
Ivor Prickett: Thanks for having me.
Marjorie: So you've been doing this work for a long time in places like Egypt and Iraq, and Syria and Ukraine, and when you and the New York Times won the Pulitzer Prize in International Reporting, it was for coverage of the Civil War in Sudan. Since the Civil War began in April 2023, the International Federation of Journalists has reported that at least 13 journalists and media workers have lost their lives in Sudan, making Sudan the deadliest country for journalists in Africa. Has it become more difficult for photojournalists in general, do you think, to gain access in conflicts and wars? And how has access changed over time?
Ivor: Yeah, I mean, I've definitely noticed a shift in the last 10 years or so. I don't know if I've been around long enough to really know what the the golden age for photojournalism was like, you know, or what covering say the Balkans or, you know, the war in Vietnam was like, um, and it's certainly changed since, since then, and every conflict is different, of course. And Sudan presents a very complicated set of boundaries on both sides. You know that's the hardest thing about it, is that you're dealing with two forces that are incredibly wary of journalists and also incredibly aware of the impact of journalism or bad press. Sudan was always a bit like that, I would say, but it's, you know, that whole distrust towards journalists has definitely become greater and more amplified in recent years. And when it comes to covering conflict, then you're dealing with, you know, military forces, governments, intelligence services, who are looking at that and trying to find ways to control it and use, you know, I would say use journalists in the way that they want to be portrayed. So people have become so much more aware of the power of, of journalists on the ground and how important it is to try and control them. It's always been a part of covering conflict, but I think it's definitely gotten more overt in recent years.
Marjorie: So, would you say that Sudan, in terms of access was more challenging than other places you've covered or just different, and what strategies did you use there to to gain access?
Ivor: I would say it's probably been the most difficult place to work. Um, what to gain access in the first place, but then also to work on the ground. And I can't take too much credit for getting access initially. I would have to say that Declan Walsh, the bureau chief for The New York Times in Africa, who was my colleague on all of the work that we've done in Sudan, and he's been covering Sudan for over 20 years. And so he really utilized his contacts and his understanding of the region to get access. But, you know, even with that, it took a long time, Declan really pulled all sorts of strings to, get us visas and, and, you know, permission to go in. I think when we went first to Khartoum to Anderman in April 2024, you know, the war had already been going on a year at that point—
Marjorie: Yeah.
Ivor: And we were some of the first journalists to actually get there, you know, and get a glimpse of what Khartoum looked like. And that just shows you how difficult it's been to get access. You know, militaries and governments have become much more savvy about drip-feeding access to the people they want to give access to. So, you know, we were the first big American newspaper to get in. So, that's part of it too. When you work for The New York Times, that holds a lot of kind of weight for people and you're often at the top of the pecking order in terms of access.
Marjorie: Right.
Ivor: And I would say the access was twofold. You had the access to get a visa and the right to enter the country, which was probably the hardest thing to attain. And then once you had that, that was, yeah, it was really only half the battle because Sudan — and especially the current kind of iteration of Sudan and the Sovereign Council that governs the, you know, the government control sides — is so fragmented and, you know, there are so many different kind of powerful figures in that grouping and then powerful security services on the ground.
Marjorie: Yeah.
Ivor: So, just because you have a visa and permission from one faction doesn't mean you know that everyone is gonna accept that.
Marjorie: So, the difficulty is in crossing lines of control.
Ivor: Yeah. Between Port Sudan and Omdurman, I think there were 30 or 40 checkpoints. There were more that we had to, that we had to pass through all manned by different groups. Maybe not all, but every group almost thought that they were entitled to a different piece of paperwork or a different permission. And there was a lot of suspicion, especially towards photos, you know. I think very often people were informing on you, and saying that they'd seen a bunch of white dudes walking around with cameras and, and then suddenly a van full of men in uniform would turn up — or not in uniform — and, you know, quickly take your gear and your passports and ask you what you were doing. And even though you had this supposed paperwork, they initially would question it. And yeah, it was, it was really difficult and on the ground, especially in, you know, in Khartoum where, where we were working with the military, you know, one of the biggest challenges for, for both of us, but especially for me, was the control that they had. Over what I could photograph. You don't see that in the pictures 'cause you just see the finished product and, you know, it all looks kind of open. But we had a military press person with us at all times, which is common. I mean, like, that seems to be the norm everywhere now. But In Ukraine, their interference in what you do would be far less. For example—
Marjorie: It was the case in Iraq.
Ivor: Yeah, yeah, exactly. The Americans, the Brits would be the real pros at doing that.
Marjorie: And the Iraqis were keeping minders on as well.
Ivor: Oh, yeah. Yeah. But this was probably the most invasive I've ever experienced to the point where, you know, they would literally jump in front of me and tell me I couldn't photograph something. And it was often the strangest, you know, the strangest things. They were so, you know, worried about anything reflecting badly on them.
Marjorie: Right. Did you work on the ground with local journalists and fixers?
Ivor: Yeah. It was hard to find people who were still in Sudan, you know, who were ready to work. A lot of people had left. And as you rightly pointed out in the beginning, it's, it's one of the most dangerous places for Sudanese journalists, especially local journalists to work. So it was really difficult to find the right people, but Declan came across a young, kind of, you know, would-be reporter, a guy called Abdul Rahman Al-Daheb, who became our, you know, kind of third member of the team over all the trips that we've done and was invaluable. He understood how these forces worked. He was from Omdurman himself. He was, you know, being displaced and was in Port Sudan. And, there was so little previous coverage on the ground that it was very hard to know what we were going to find when we got there. And you know, it was very, very hard to plan, pre-plan, you know, usually before you go in somewhere like that. You can talk to other journalists, the aid workers who've been there before you, and they'll give you the lowdown. You know, that's what everyone does. And with Sudan, in the beginning there was virtually no one we could talk to, so it was like really walking into the dark. So someone like Abdul, you know, he's your eyes and ears and not only, you know, does he help with the, the paperwork, but, you know, he helps point out any cultural or, you know, kind of, just the simple things that you might not know that you might miss in order to get you through every checkpoint and get you to where you need to be.
Marjorie: Right.
Ivor: So, yeah, without people like that, we can't — there's no way we can do the work that we do.
Marjorie: Sure. So back in the fall, we spoke with Enric Martí, and Nariman El-Mofty at the International Press Institute World Congress in Vienna, and your name came up in the conversation as we talked about the impact images from Gaza have had on the public opinion in the United States and and globally around the war there. And Enric suggested that when there's little or no coverage of a place, it's hard to get the public to care about the story, even if there are horrific atrocities taking place. So what do you think of that and have you found that to be the case with Sudan? That, you know, minimal coverage that you've spoken about – does that make it harder to break through with the public?
Ivor: Definitely. Yeah. I think that's one of the reasons why so few people know, you know, even the basics about what's going on in Sudan, let alone care much. And I think, you know, that's quite convenient for — especially the, you know, the RSF — who I would say are the aggressors in this situation who, you know, essentially started the war. It's the paramilitary group that perhaps have carried out the worst atrocities so far, you know, so for them it's very convenient to be doing what they're doing in a virtual media blackout. Like I was saying earlier, access to both sides has been incredibly difficult and the Sudanese military are by no means an easy party to work with, but at least they've given some of us access to see what's going on and, and, you know, even to the front lines. But the RSF have been incredibly difficult to get near. And it's not only handpicking, it's just, you know, virtually kind of no access for journalists. And that is incredibly important when it comes to what they're doing, you know, which is carrying out ethnic cleansing, mass atrocities, all, you know, behind this cover of darkness and that allows the war to keep going. That allows any, you know, warring party in a conflict to spew lies and tell their version of events when there's no other way of, of kind of proving them wrong. So, yeah, I think that's a huge part of why Sudan hasn't registered with a lot of people. And it was also contending with Ukraine and Gaza. But, you know, also there's a lot of apathy I think towards wars in Africa and Sudan in general. It's been in turmoil for years. People are probably fed up of hearing about it, but I think the ramifications for the wider region are so huge that people should care more.
Marjorie: Do you feel that the work that shining a light on that conflict has had an impact on public opinion or on government policy in any country?
Ivor: Yeah. I, you know, I think, I think it has, when we went in to Sudan in 2024, you know, we came back with some of the, the first really clear images and storytelling about the devastation that was being brought on the people of Sudan and in Khartoum especially. And yeah, I know for a fact that there was a lot of recognition and in some cases actual changes in policy as a result of some of the work we did. But yeah, just as a one example, one of the stories that we did was about the blockade of aid for Darfur from the — actually from the Sudanese government side. They were not allowing international aid trucks across the border at Adre in eastern Chad, into Darfur to, you know, to reach people in need in Darfur. Because they said that the RSF who were in control of the other side of the border were stealing the aid, and it was helping their war efforts. So they'd been blocking, you know, they'd been blocking aid for months. And when we went and, you know, we did a big story in Adre and Declan talked heavily about the blockade. And then, you know, several weeks later — and I'm not saying that that story alone made it change — but the border was opened up. So I think, you know, journalism combined with then noise from governments and politicians is what it takes to put pressure—
Marjorie: Right.
Ivor: For the parties to change tactics.
Marjorie: So you've said that Declan has covered Sudan for years and had a lot of preparation. Did you just get in there and start working together or how did you sort of find your rhythm to work as a team?
Ivor: Yeah, it was a lot of unknowns because we hadn't actually worked together before. Even though I knew his work well and we're both Irish and I hadn't worked in Sudan. And he got me up to speed a lot. And you know, for me, working with someone like Declan is very easy because he's a consummate journalist. He's, you know, a humanistic journalist. He's interested in people the same way I am. He's a great reportage writer, so he wants to you know see things the same way a photographer would. It was very easy for us to work together, I would say. I dunno what he would say, but that was my experience.
Marjorie: So, um, you actually are a photographer and you write, do you think that impacts in any way the visuals that you take, that you're a writer as well?
Ivor: Yeah, I mean, um. I don't always do it, but it's nice when I get the chance to do it. I would say I wouldn't want to do it all the time because of course, if you’re having to think about both as a photographer or you know, the other way around. I'm sure it's harder. You know, it takes your attention away from the moment and especially if it's a fast-moving situation or you know, a kind of kinetic environment, it's really hard to have both kind of hats on.
Marjorie: And it could be the reverse that the visuals actually inform the writing more than the writing the visuals. But how do you know when you've got the story? How do you know when it's time to leave?
Ivor: That's — yeah, it's a tough one. Especially when we were there in 2025 as Khartoum was, you know, being retaken by the military. And opening up for the first time in two years and we got to cross the Blue Nile and, and you know, set foot in the presidential palace and there was so much going on and a lot of that happened towards the end of a nearly three-week trip. You know, in moments like that, you could kind of stay forever.
Marjorie: Yeah.
Ivor: Because there's so much to see and do, and you don't wanna miss anything. Especially as a photographer, one of the kind of earliest things I learned was be the last to leave. You know—
Marjorie: Right.
Ivor: You should be the first to turn up and you should be the last to leave. You know, you should see a situation through. You should never think, okay, I've got enough. Because you just never know where a picture is gonna come from. As a photographer, there's certain things you can predict and you can guess how something's gonna play out, but very often it's not what you're expecting. That makes the good picture. So, my favorite photographers, the people I consider some of the best photographers are like that, you know, they're like, like a heron that just stands in one place, motionless, waiting. Much to the annoyance of their journalist colleagues or other photographers who want them to get out of the way. But yeah, it's a real game of patience and waiting.
Marjorie: Yeah.
Ivor: You know, it's one thing that digital photography has ruined in people, I think, because they take pictures and then they look at them on the back of their camera and they think, 'Oh, wow, I'm so great. I just took an amazing picture.' And then they go home. But you know, in the past we couldn't do that and I shot a lot of work on film and I think it stayed with me that in the past you didn't know, you couldn't check your photos in the field. And sometimes it's clearer than others. That's what I mean, that you've got what you need and sometimes you feel like you could stay for a year and keep seeing stuff.
Marjorie: Sure. Is it hard to let go of a story? Like, is it hard to leave and then is it hard to move away from a story you've been covering?
Ivor: Yeah, I've definitely experienced that in the past, both on the ground, not wanting to leave, worried that you're gonna miss something. But I have a 16-month old daughter now and she kind of dictates my timeframe a bit more than in the past. So, yeah, as Declan said, when you have kids, you're no longer, as a journalist, just planning how you get in somewhere and then not worrying about how you get out, but as a parent and a journalist, you're more worried about how you're gonna get out, you know?
Marjorie: Absolutely.
Ivor: In time.
Marjorie: Yes.
Ivor: So that's changed things for sure. But I know from the past covering, say, Iraq, the war against ISIS in Mosul and Syria. That was really hard to kind of, I would say, put a line under for everyone, you know? The whole thing's still going on in many ways, but, you know, personally, I worked there a lot for three years and it was really difficult to decide that enough was enough at that time. And you know, I think that's what happens when you cover something for long enough. You get so attached to it and so involved that you don't wanna miss any changes, you know?
Ivor: But I think it's good to change things up and, you know, you can go back to, you know, you can go back to stories, but for me, Sudan, you know, was a big change and Greenland was a big change over the last couple years and it's been really interesting in many ways to work in new places.
Marjorie: Ivor, thank you so much for joining us today. We appreciate it very much as we appreciate the work that you do.
Ivor: Thanks for having me.
[MUX TRANSITION]
That’s it for this episode of Pulitzer on the Road!
Thank you to Enric Martí, Nariman El-Moft and Ivor Prickett for joining us.
If you enjoyed this episode of Pulitzer on the Road, I highly recommend you check out our previous episodes like “To the Border and Beyond” and another episode where we interviewed Mstyslav Chernov about his work in Mariupol. In both episodes we talk about photojournalism and issues around access. You can find links to these episodes in our show notes.
For more details about the work of all Pulitzer winners, please visit our website at pulitzer.org.
Pulitzer on the Road is a production of the Pulitzer Prize Board.
This show is hosted by me, Nicole Carroll.
Our senior producer is Justine Daum.
Mixing by Davy Sumner and Jason Richards.
A special thank you to the International Press Institute, Gabriela Manuli, and Grace Linczer.
Thank you to James Bittel and Anthony J. Mangone at Columbia Journalism Broadcast Technology. And thank you to Alex Kosiorek and Anna Williams at Central Sound Studio.
Music licensing by APM and Epidemic Sound.
Editing, promotion and other support by Pamela Casey, Edward Kliment and Sean Murphy. Marjorie Miller is our executive producer.